| Author | Message | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2013 |
Jeff/anyone, what would it take to GPL Zillions? Now that the game has not been updated for over a decade, and now that the website isn't even being updated with new games any more, in order to not have this game fall in to the dustbin of history, I wonder what it would take for Mallett and Lefler to GPL Zillions. I'm thinking a kickstarter, where if Mallett/Lefler get X amount of money (X being a number only Mallett and Lefler can come up with), they will release Zillions' source code to the world without any support (Probably 1990s Microsoft Visual C++ code which won't compile in anything open source without a lot of TLC). | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 165 Registered: 1-2007 |
Sam, I've had similar ideas. I would definitely be willing to contribute $ and time to such a project. The trick is getting in touch with Mallet & Lefler. | |||
| Jon Steven Nelson (Jonn99)
New member Username: Jonn99 Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2013 |
MALLETT and LEFLER split and quit -> they won't answer ZOG users' e-coms, if at all -> I e-comm'd MALLETT, and he gave me a smug disregard -> ZOG IS DOOMED TO CONTRACTUAL REMOVAL on 2m/28/d/2015 -> source: WEBSITE DOMAINS.com | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2013 |
Jon, Please stop spreading this tale. Jeff Mallett has already said that you're just making this stuff up: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zillions_of_Games&diff=508483147&oldid=508466091 | |||
| Mark Lefler (Markl)
Moderator Username: Markl Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hi everyone, Mark Lefler here. It has been a while, and we have been spending our time getting the server back up after a forced move. We think we have fixed most of the things broken in the move, and now that I am semi-retired from my other job, I hope to do more work on Zillions. A kickstarter is a very interesting idea, and I will try and discuss it with Jeff. I am also interested in some kind of a port to Android and/or iOS. If anyone knows people with appropriate skills, lets start a private conversation. | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2013 |
I’m really excited that there is some interest in reviving Zillions. I think a smartphone port would be perfect! It’s no Rybka/Hiracs, so I think its target market would be people who like a variety of abstract games, including casual club-level Chess. I can come up with a zillion feature requests for Zillions of Games, but some that come to mind are: * An android and iOs port so people could play any abstract game any time would be great. And it would be a new revenue stream. The only downside is that $25 is probably too high of a price point (it has been an ugly race to the bottom for developers, which, as a professional software developer, I do not care for) * Difficulty levels easier than “pushover”. Most people want an engine with a fun factor--and that means they can win about 50% of the time, even if they are a complete patzer. * I would have the demo version play standard Chess (as well as Shogi, Chinese Chess, Checkers, and Go) but only allow 10 moves before telling people they need to register to play a complete game. * An opening book. This way, the Chess engine doesn’t appear nearly as goofy for club-level players (1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 Nf6?! gets old after a while). It will still only be a ~2200 strength engine, but that’s a lot stronger than most chessplayers, including myself. * Decent sound and music. I think a simple theme song (No canned sounding MIDIs please!) for the opening screen and decent sound effects during the games would be great. * The ability to assign values to pieces in the .zrf. * The ability to effectively flip the board in Shogi (allow pieces to optionally flip when flipping the board). For games with both Shogi and Chess pieces, the flip-piece option should be at the piece level. (My kludge is to have, as an alternate tileset, flipped pieces) * While Zillions strength is limited, it would be nice to have the ability to have Zillions play itself, say, 10 or 100 or even 1000 games and log the results. This is really useful for giving a new abstract game good playtesting (and maybe even give us a bit of an opening book). Of course, I do understand that it’s infinitely easier to request a feature than it is to implement it, and I understand there are a lot of risks with investing time and effort to implement games with possibly limited appeal. I really really love the Zillions engine and I’m really excited that it might be revived after a decade. - Sam P.S. I like your Wiki at http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/ | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 166 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hello Mark, Thank you for your post and I share Sam's excitement for future plans for the Zillions product. I would be willing to support any future efforts and I really like the Kickstarter idea that Sam proposed. I am winding down Axiom and, as time permits, I am starting to learn the Android environment. I would be happy to be involved in any future projects involving Zillions in any way that makes sense (I learned quite a bit by creating Axiom and implementing a number of games for it). A port of Zillions, in its current form, to a modern platform would certainly be a worthwhile endeaver. Please stay in touch. -- Greg | |||
| Jon Steven Nelson (Jonn99)
New member Username: Jonn99 Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2013 |
You mean re-porting the same old, klunky ZILLIONS-OF-GAMES.com z.r.f. interface to the iPad? How dreadfully dull! | |||
| Mark Lefler (Markl)
Moderator Username: Markl Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2001 |
Tablets with touch screens are very different from a computer screen with a mouse, but the Zillions interface should be pretty easy to implement on a touchscreen. Clicks taps. Drags are still drags. We would have to do something like double tap for the right click. Even though Zillions is old, I think the interface still stands up well. iOS might prove a challenge since it does not have a real file system, so we would have to figure out an easy way for people to create and distribute the ZRFs and media files. | |||
| As Bardhi (Aepasa) New member Username: Aepasa Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2007 |
Actually, Zillions Interface is "Timeless" & one of Best looking interfaces of All the Time! Cheers, Astrit | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2013 |
I don't think the interface needs to be changed, Mark. Slightly updated for touch screen: Tap on piece shows where the piece can move, as green circles. Tapping on a green circle moves the piece there. Tap and drag also moves the piece. I need we need to make it more accessible to people who are not Chess Variant inventors (easier levels than pushover, better sound and music, opening books for club-level Chess players, newspaper-style chess graphics, flip board for Shogi). I think the way to handle the race to the bottom is to have a given $5 game only support a couple of games, and still charge $25 for the full version which allows arbitrary games to be loaded. Or, perhaps, charge the user for the right to edit the board position or take back moves: Add the right for the player to add low-ranking pieces -- knight or bishop -- to the board up to 10 times for only 99 cents! For only $4.99, be able to add a queen to your army for up to 10 times. Be able to take back a move 50 times for only 99 cents! Be able to choose what opening you play against the AI for only $1.99! | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2007 |
I agree with what's been said about the existing interface remaining largely the same. One issue will be to figure out how to present the rich set of features offered by Z on the limited real estate of a tablet/phone, but I'm sure those details can be worked out. From what little I've read about iOS, each app has it's own "sandbox", basically a private file system available only to that app. To import a file into the device requires that the app "knows" about the particular file type. Here's a useful link I found on the subject: https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/FileSystemProgramming (gotta love Apple) Another thing that has me concerned about iOS is the following: "3.3.2 An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise. No interpreted code may be downloaded or used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)" This could have serious implications for a built-in language such as ZRF. (gotta love Apple - and that's why I buy Android devices) Finally, I imagine an initial port of Z to a mobile OS would initially lose features (e.g. plug-in engines) rather than gain features. I don't know what a viable pricing structure would be, but I will say that it would be nice, if for a one time fee, developers could have the ability of creating their own game as a stand-alone app and be allowed to sell it on Google Play or whatever... And I tread carefully when I offer suggestions because I highly suspect that Mark and Jeff were overwhelmed with the feedback for this or that particular feature (in the forum, some asked nicely, others were downright rude). I know what that can be like, and you'll never be able to please everyone even if it were somehow possible to spend man-millenia adding new features (I do have further thoughts on this topic, but unless asked, I'll keep them to myself). I suspect that right now, there's a big enough challenge to port what existing Z features can reasonably be ported to mobile. Even if that "modest" sounding goal (massive understatement) were achieved, it would be a huge and fantastic accomplishment. P.S. If someone finds the existing interface "klunky", then they're more than welcome to devise their own General Game Playing System which works on mobile devices and will dazzle everyone who gazes at its "non klunkiness". Until that time, they'll continue to have zero credibility in this forum. | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 168 Registered: 1-2007 |
The above link I posted doesn't seem to work. Hopefully this one will... https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/iphone/conceptual/iphoneosprogrammingguide/TheiOSEnvironment/TheiOSEnvironment.html | |||
| David J Bush (Twixter)
New member Username: Twixter Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2002 |
I suppose in general, existing zrf packages won't work on a small screen. I look forward to the opportunity to rewrite the two packages I did, and possibly add some other stuff. Repeating my post from another thread, I hope an archive of games played becomes available to registered users. And I hope some standard notation methodology is implemented which makes game analysis and shared files easier, instead of whatever system works best for the zrf writer. | |||
| Jon Steven Nelson (Jonn99)
New member Username: Jonn99 Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2013 |
I envision a new next-generation ZOG, with graphics comparable to BCMShogi.com, and with online play comparable to PlayOK.com, so that z.r.f.'s, such as 'TransDimensional Chess' by L. Lynn Smith, and 'Spherical Chess 400' by Greg Schmidt, could be re-published with graphics which betteringly portray the abstract geometric ideas those z.r.f. authors couldn't reach with the old ©1998-2003 ZOG. | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2007 |
Twixter, Other than perhaps having to scale the coordinate system, I don't see why a ZRF wouldn't port directly to a mobile device. After all, the ZRF defines the games rules which are independent of any particular physical device. | |||
| M Winther (Kalroten)
New member Username: Kalroten Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2007 |
The most important improvement, I think, is to add "point & click" as an alternative way of moving pieces. As of now, it is easy to alter the relative values of pieces by tweaking. (However, such a feature can't be that difficult to implement.) Nor do I think that an opening book is of much value, except that it can increase variability. My chess variants play finely in the openings thanks to tweaking. I have implemented alternative personalities, too. Early queen excursions are also avoided. I wouldn't reprogram my zrf:s if opening books were introduced, because it works so well anyway, and it would mean an immense work to introduce opening books. Most programmers don't have a good enough understanding to be able to create good opening books anyway. What would improve playing strength in chess-like programs is a better search algorithm. I am rather satisfied with Zillions as it is. Of course, the central issue is backwards-compatibility. It would be frustrating if my games wouldn't work anymore. Tweaking must also work the same, otherwise much valuable work is lost. Much historical game-research and many good inventions have been made by ambitious programmers. /Mats | |||
| M Winther (Kalroten)
New member Username: Kalroten Post Number: 155 Registered: 1-2007 |
Another problem which must be addressed is the fact that modern computers are endowed with double cores. If both processors could be utilized, the program would be stronger, I suppose. /Mats | |||
| David J Bush (Twixter)
New member Username: Twixter Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2002 |
The zrf is largely independent of screen size, but it relies on specific bitmap images, and it defines the board grid in terms of base vectors. If you scale these vectors down, and you automatically reduce the images by some set constant, the result might not look very readable. I am thinking in particular about my game "Loop Game" which emulates a three dimensional grid where tiles stack like cannonballs. In order to avoid image overlap, each "piece" displays a region of the board seen from overhead, which may include portions of up to five different tiles. The tiles are black or white, and the border between them is green, usually one pixel thick. If the green border line between tiles of the same color disappears, the result can be confusing and not very readable. So at the very least, I would have to create a smaller set of zrf piece image files, all 240 of them, as well as the boards of course. Depending on the size constraints, I might not be able to pack all the visual information I need into each piece image, so that the game is still playable. Perhaps I am whining, but I am responding to a comment at the same time, so I regard this as germane. :-) One workaround I have seen, applied to a 19x19 Go board, is to provide an overall view of the board with a magnified region which can scroll around. | |||
| Greg Schmidt (Gschmidt2)
New member Username: Gschmidt2 Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2007 |
Twixter, Here is how Loop Game appears on my 7" Android Tablet. Note both portrait and landscape views. It looks just fine and you can see the green borders. It's really no different than running Zillions on a PC and messing with your screen resolution.   | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2013 |
Nor do I think that an opening book is of much value, except that it can increase variability. My chess variants play finely in the openings thanks to tweaking [...] it would mean an immense work to introduce opening books. Most programmers don't have a good enough understanding to be able to create good opening books anyway. To clarify, I was talking about having Zillions play orthodox Chess, Shogi, or Chinese Chess, where most of the money is. There, getting an opening book is a simple matter of opening up Modern Chess Openings and entering in the main lines. For the record, I just opened up Mats' Chess256 Zillions file, set up the board to have all the pawns on the second rank (orthodox Chess), and played 1. e4. It first contemplated 1. [...] Nc6, then d5, then e6, then d5 again. The strongest move in reply to 1. e4 is either e5 or c5, neither of which Zillions saw, even with these tweaks. In addition, Zillions at a given level almost always make the same move, even when variety is set to the highest possible level. Point being, I suggested an opening book so Zillions doesn't come off as too weak and eccentric to club-level chess players (who will usually have no interest in variants) trying out the app. I agree an opening book has limited value with most variants. As a final note, I do use Mats improvements in my own W-Flyer rules file and it does appear to somewhat improve opening play. But, I don't think these tweaks are a replacement for a good hand-tuned opening book.
| |||
| M Winther (Kalroten)
New member Username: Kalroten Post Number: 156 Registered: 1-2007 |
No, my Chess256 contains no tweaks at all, since the pawns are randomized on the second and third rank. I didn't bother, since the standard position only occurs in one case of 256. In all other positions, the defensive task is easier than in standard chess, and Zillions already has pawns developed to defensive positions and handles these positions quite well. http://hem.passagen.se/melki9/randompawn.htm By the way, 1.e4 Nc6 is Nimzowitch defence; 1.e4 d5 is Scandinavian defence; 1.e4 e6 is French defence. These are fine openings choices by Zillions. 1.e4 e5 and 1.e4 c5 are much more difficult to handle. There's no point in developing opening books for Xiangqi, Shogi, and chess in Zillions, since there already exist vastly superior programs with huge opening books, many of them freely downloadable. I am quite satisfied with the opening play by Zillions in my tweaked variants. I don't mind having an opening book in Zillions. It's just that I think it's low priority. If the search algorithm is improved, and the capacity for double cores is introduced, it would do much more for playing strength. /Mats | |||
| Jeff Zeitlin (Jzeitlin)
New member Username: Jzeitlin Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2003 |
Regarding the UI changes for touch-enabled devices: My experience has largely been that the functional equivalents tend to be: Mouse left-click: touch tap-once Mouse double-click: Not usually used; rarely tap-twice. Mouse right-click: touch tap-and-hold Mouse click-drag: touch tap-and-drag, sometimes tap-hold-drag. | |||
| Jeff Zeitlin (Jzeitlin)
New member Username: Jzeitlin Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2003 |
Another thought regarding UI - perhaps an update to Zillions - 2.1? 3.0? - could support SVG as a graphic format instead of just bitmaps. This would potentially allow scaling for different-sized screens, without the ZRF author having to rewrite. I remember at least one ZRF for klin zha (Klingon chess) which used graphics that were so large that you NEEDED to have a 1280x1024 screen, at a time when the most common screens were still only 1024x768. | |||
| Jon Steven Nelson (Jonn99)
New member Username: Jonn99 Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2013 |
APPLE iOS app: ESFERA by SQUZ -> in the iOS app store, freebie app ESFERA by SQUZ is an example of a 3-D spherical chess variant with 3-D spherical geometrical graphics. | |||
| Sam Trenholme (Vktj)
New member Username: Vktj Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2013 |
Mats, is is OK if I submit to zillions-of-games.com that W-flyer.zip file (see above) which includes some of your improvements to Zillions' play? It plays Chess, some 8x8 chess variants, and a handful of 10x8 variants. | |||
| M Winther (Kalroten)
New member Username: Kalroten Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2007 |
Of course! I have exhorted people to use my ideas. /Mats |
Using Mats' improvements