| Author |
Message |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 3:51 am: | |
I created this game awhile back I now call Groups. The instructions are at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/7537/groups.htm
It is akin to Lines of Action except:
1. Pieces only move like kings in chess every turn (no variable distance like in Lines of Action.
2. There is no capture in the game.
3. Connections for a group are made vertically and/or horizontally, not diagonally.
4. The pieces start out clustered in the center of the board. In basic version opening is set. In advanced version, players alternate turns dropping pieces on the board.
I tried to use the Line of Action rules up on Zillions to do this: http://www.zillionsofgames.com/games/LinesOfAction.html
The only problem is that I either disable the victory conditions or are not able to implement the above.
Can someone help here? Perhaps the person who ported Lines of Action could explain their code, and my rules could be added as a variant to their game.
If you can email, that would be good:
richardhutnik@hotmail.com
Thank you for your time...
- Richard |
Patrick S. Duff (Pduff)
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:01 pm: | |
I am the developer of the Lines of Action rules file for Zillions of Games. You can contact me directly at pduff@airmail.net if you have any specific questions.
Be sure you have the most recent version of the LoA.zrf file, version 9.3 dated 13 Oct 2001, which plays 2,457,600 variants!
In particular, your rule 1 is supported by selecting the "Count Self" option; your rule 2 is supported by setting all pieces to
"invulnerable", your rule 3 is an option in the zrf file, and your rule 4 is supported by many different board setups and player move variants.
I've ordered ZoG v2 and will re-test my LoA rules file as soon as it arrives. ZoG v1 couldn't do the "Connected Moves / Connected Swaps" variants I wanted; perhaps ZoG v2 will let me implement them! |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 9:56 am: | |
Patrick, your mailbox is full. I wasn't able to get my mail to you. I am curious if maybe you either worked with someone else, or have a different version. The version of Lines of Action I have credits Seo Sanghyeon as the author.
Feel free to email me your latest rules set when you get a chance. Email address again:
richardhutnik@hotmail.com |
Patrick S. Duff (Pduff)
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 2:10 am: | |
I looked on the Zillions of Games website and found the Seo Sanghyeon version of Lines of Action. I tested it and found that it doesn't correctly detect connected groups of pieces, and as a result doesn't play Lines of Action properly. Connection games are tricky to implement correctly, and even harder to do efficiently.
My version hasn't been posted to the ZoG website yet because I couldn't get one of the non-LoA variants working. After trying about a dozen different approaches, I got frustrated with it and put it aside over a year ago. I'm hoping that the new authoring interface in version 2 will help me figure out what is going wrong and finally get the "Connected Moves" and "Connected Swaps" macros working.
But it does play official LoA and lots of LoA variants (including the usual scrambled and parachute variants) correctly, and on boards from 4x4 up to 10x10. Also, I've tested and tuned its move choices by comparing them with about 30 actual games people played in the online LoA tournaments. It plays a very strong game.
In the past I've emailed my rules file to everyone who's asked for it, but now I want to test it in ZoG v2 before distributing it again. Maybe I'll even get the last variant working! |
Robert A. Kraus (Bobkraus)
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 8:56 pm: | |
I too saw that new LinesOfAction file.
I wish people wouldn't post implemented games that Zillions can't really play, and certainly not files that don't implement the rules correctly!
When I first got Zillions, LOA and Camelot were two of the first games I implemented (with 100% correct rules) but I quickly saw that Zillions played them terribly! So of course I never submitted them.
I think someone at Zillions should test the games and screen out the really bad ones, and any others that don't work correctly.
Bob Kraus |
David J Bush (Twixter)
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 9:20 pm: | |
I certainly agree the rules should be correctly implemented, but a game Zillions does not play well may still have value for Internet play, or just as a virtual board, for examining positions. For example, my Twixt package was not intended to play the game. A few devotees of the game use it to play each other in real time. It recognizes legal moves, but not the game object. Players decide for themselves when the game is over, either by resignation or agreeing to a draw. Perhaps some devotees of LOA would find your package worthwhile, Robert. As long as Zillions does not take up too much time deciding if the game is over after each move, it could be used for Net play. |
Keith Carter (Keithc)
| | Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 12:18 am: | |
Games that Zillions does not play well do have less value for me. However, I do use Zillions as a virtual board for play by email so such games do have some value.
What I would like to see with games that Zillions does not play well is a note on the posting page and in the game strategy description mentioning the limitation. Such as was done with Phutball and Scala.
As I understand it games are currently tested to make sure they will run. The idea of someone screening out bad games has some appeal. Certainly there have been games that duplicate already posted games, never end, are otherwise fatally flawed as game designs, or (keep in mind I am a graphics person of sorts) are so hard to look at they interefere with play.
That said, I would rather be my own screener. It does not take that long to download and check out a submission. I would rather have a flawed or otherwise problematic design that might contribute ideas to future game designs, than have somone limit my choices for me. |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 3:00 am: | |
When someone has a valid set of rules for Line of Action Zillions, can you PLEASE notify me, so I can get ahold of it? I do want to implement my variant.
Thanks...
- Richard Hutnik |
Dan Troyka (Dtroyka)
| | Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:38 pm: | |
It would, I think, be fairly straightforward to modify the connection routine
in Uisge for Groups. I can do this if you're interested; just let me know. |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:36 am: | |
Dan, thanks. I am not sure it will help with Groups, but it may help with my Sophia game, which has a move where jumping over pieces causes pieces to flip over.
- Richard |
Dan Troyka (Dtroyka)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hi Richard. I'm not referring to the jump coding but to the determination in Uisge of whether all pieces remain orthogonally connected. This is contained in three macros called start-flags, connect, and stay-connected. To make this work for Groups, one need do only three things:
(1) systematically change the "Piece?" test to "friend?", so that only friendly connections are evaluataed;
(2) change the consequence of a finding of connection; in Uisge the move is allowed; in Groups the line (if (flag? loner) (verify false)) would have to be changed to something like (if (not-flag? loner) (change-type Winner x1) (change-owner x1)), with the win-condition being having a dummy piece Winner on the dummy position x1; and
(3) use the correct start-flags to label adjacent friendly pieces as connected; this could be done in Groups by using the macro start-flags-II for orthogonal steps and start-flags-III for diagonal steps, with the macros called in each case on the destination square.
It was not clear to me from your previous postings whether you want to implement the game yourself. If you want help, let me know and I can do it. It looks like an interesting game. |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 2:15 pm: | |
Dan, if anyone wants to go ahead and implement any of the rules to games I created, they are free to. I particularly would like to get Linebreakers done (another game I did), and would be interested in seeing Dvonn done up in Zillions. |
Richard Hutnik (Richardhutnik)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 11:14 pm: | |
I want to thank Dan for getting this game up and running for me (plus the good artwork), including the fix placement setup. Hopefully the game will be finalized soon. Look for the game "Groups" on here.
- Richard Hutnik |
Keith Carter (Keithc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 12:00 am: | |
I would like to thank Dan. He helped me solve a frustrating script problem I had with my first Zillions submission. He has quickly fielded many requests for help and has been the board's informal answer man.
Keith |
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