| Author |
Message |
Y Dienyddiwr Da (Dienyddiwr)
| | Posted on Friday, September 08, 2000 - 12:13 am: | |
Go? there is Mini-Go, but no Go, i was shocked.
Mancala/Wari? Zclient has these three games.
these are all that are missing to have all the
classics in ZOG.
My two bits ^,^ |
Marek Ctrnact (Marek14)
| | Posted on Friday, September 08, 2000 - 5:07 am: | |
The reason why Go is not in ZoG is that would be way too slow. As for Mankala games, these would require a lot of arithmetic macros... It could be probably done, but since people hope there will be some arithmetic enhancement in future version they do not bother to program it now... |
David GLAUDE (Glu)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 8:00 am: | |
Here is my believe base on (message from Jeff, simple observation, reverse enginering). There is no warranty on what I say.
* ZClient contain a copy of the engine from ZOG.
* The engine support extended syntax, wich permit the easy implementation of Internationnal Checkers (Draughts) and any game that require majority take (maximum take).
* Go implementation in Zclient is similar to ZoG mini-Go, but use a external dll: "GoEngine.dll". Without that DLL the game would be poor. Using the DLL and the proper ZRF file it should be possible to play Go with ZoG. Because I am not an expert in go (I almost don't understand the rules) it is very difficult for me to test.
* As for Mankala (and Backgammon) I believe that the Zclient engine is using the related DLL files in order to play well, but also to check for legal move. This feature is not available within ZoG, this mean it would be difficult to do the same game or reuse the DLL with ZoG.
This is how much I can tell right now, if you believe I am wrong, please speak out.
Everything else (below) is not factual but only my point of view, if you agree then speak out.
I think that Zclient was build using ZoG as the base. Because it is customed program and MSO requested games not available or not easy to implement or not playing strongly enough with the current engine... Zillions developpement did write specific modification to the engine, the dll interaction and did write specific engine for thoses games.
Either because they don't have the time, they cannot because developpement where payed by MSO and they are bound by a contract, or because they don't want to... Zillions developpement is not providing us (the user community of registred Zillions player) those enhancements back.
As for those enhancement, I am also very much interested into the dual clock as it help you play like in tournement situation. And any more fine tune control on opponent thinking time would be nice.
I have been told about a new version, that might support Internationnal Checkers being in test. I hope this will be release soon and new feature will be properly documented.
David GLAUDE. glu@who.net |
Y Dienyddiwr Da (Dienyddiwr)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 1:44 pm: | |
Hmmm, thats an interesting thought...
how does one go about utilising DLLs (other than
the very basics of including it ^,^). I know
enough about go that i could probably impliment a
small test version using the DLL, given i knew
how to use the DLL.
Im asuming no one would really know with the
exception of ZoG employees, I wonder if there
would be any way to find out what commands the
DLL allows (ive tried opening ZClient .zogs,
Gibberish, and i dont feel like hex editing
lately).
Hopfully ZoG will simply expand with more concise
conditions, faster thinking time, and mathmatical
calculations. It is by far one of the neatest
programs for the PC to date, but there is always
room for improvement ^,^ |
Y Dienyddiwr Da (Dienyddiwr)
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 2:03 pm: | |
Scratch that, When hex editing the DLL i do see
an array of Commands, but i still have no idea
how id use them. They only look based on the
Technical Aspects of ZClient though, nothing
pertaining to the actual game. (TranslateMessage,
GetLocalTime, TerminateProcess, Etc), There
appearently are Sub-DLLs within the dll also,
like GenerateMoves.dll, IsGameOver.Dll and the
likes. Ahead of that point there are also some
other Commands, though im not sure if they are
simply messages or actual commands. The have a
Variable %d, but again, that could be a parameter
to a command or a variable to a message.
Other than that there is much more to be found,
that was actually quite uninformative ^,^
I wish i knew C++, id just write my own go engine. |
David GLAUDE (Glu)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 6:01 am: | |
Hello,
If you want to analyse an unknown DLL, you have many option like QuickView(=right click on the DLL file and choose QuickView, is it NT specific or only on my PC?).
Now a better way to find out about those DLL is by looking at the folowing description: http://www.zillions-of-games.com/language/plugin.html
Now if you check Ninuki.dll from ZoG or Demo, you will find the following usefull entry (all of them are discribe in the documentation).
DLL_Search
DLL_MakeAMove
DLL_StartNewGame
DLL_CleanUp
If you check BackgammonDLL.dll from ZClient, you find the same four entry plus...
DLL_GenerateMoves
Go figure out... this is exactly like in my "thought". Obviously this mean that possible moves are generated inside the DLL and not in the engine, nor in the description of the game.
No if you really want to know about Go, then you should check the GoEngine.dll that will show you an new entry...
DLL_IsGameOver
Now, my only problem for reussing those DLL or doing any further research is that I don't have a description of those two new undocumented entry. This mean I don't know how many/what kind/meaning what/in wich order I need to give parameter when I call those functions!
Now if anybody has more knowledge about DLL and can tell me wich parameter are expected... it's possible to go further.
So let me quote the two previous post and comment:
"Im asuming no one would really know with the
exception of ZoG employees"
Well, they seems to be open and make proper documentation RTFM.
", I wonder if there would be any way to find out what commands the DLL allows"
Well, the big question is how to use them.
"(I have tried opening ZClient .zogs, Gibberish, and i dont feel like hex editing lately)."
As far as I am concearn, *".ZOG files are to ZClient what *.ZRF files are to Zillions-of-Games". My feeling is that they do not contain any information about the DLL utilisation.
"Hopfully ZoG will simply expand with more concise conditions, faster thinking time, and mathmatical calculations. It is by far one of the neatest programs for the PC to date, but there is always room for improvement ^,^ "
Is this your hope or did you get any information comming from Zillions Developpement.
David GLAUDE glu@who.net (if ever it is not working, dglaude@netbrain.be).
PS: I hope I did not disclose anything that shouldn't go public. All the thinks I have said are easy to find out by yourself (or thought). I am not working for Zillions, I am just an end-user.
PPS: Could the Zillions Developemment team tell us more about the DLL or future version of Zillions? |
Y Dienyddiwr Da (Dienyddiwr)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 2:22 pm: | |
Actually, The ZOGs are the equivalant of ZRFs,
which is why i thought they would tell us how to
use the DLLs, in theory, GO.zog would have
examples of the GoEngine.Dll Commands and Parameters.
Perhaps someone should ask Zillions if there is a
possibility they would document their DLLs, but im sure they're quite busy as is.
My Hopes for ZoG are simply hopes, i have no inside information hehe =)
It seems all we can do from here is wait for some
sort of answer, or really dig into the DLL with
an Editor (oy).
I was wondering about disclosing too much, too.
if zillions thinks we has, i surely hope they
will let us know so we can cease.
- Y Dienyddiwr Da |
David GLAUDE (Glu)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 3:22 am: | |
How much information about the DLL do you have into a *.ZRF file? (ANSWER: Just the name of the dll engine to use).
How much information do you expect to find into a *.ZOG file? (ANSWER: exactly the same kind of information).
Rather than digging into a DLL I suggest you try to write a ZRF file, based on mini-go.zrf that will support the 19x19 size of the ZClient.
Inside this ZRF file, I think you just have to use the folowing kind of line:
(engine "Engines\GoEngine.dll")
Now, maybe it's gonna work...
There should be no problem concearning moves generation (not like in Backgammon) but maybe Zillions-of-Games will have trouble to detect a win (Because ZoG might not know about DLL_IsGameOver).
Now it is almost impossible to know what parameter a DLL entry require (without disassembling the DLL). It might however be easyer to find out how many parameter are required.
Also, based on already documented DLL entry, with a bit of inteligent guessing, one might figure what would be require to implement those function.
Now if you really want to use an HexEditor (and waist your time) you can try to open those *.ZoG files and find out how to translate them to *.ZRF.
David GLAUDE.
PS: Unfortunately I don't like Go very much, but if someone do, and want to do it into Zillion-of-Games... It shouldn't be too difficult. |
David GLAUDE (Glu)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 6:19 pm: | |
Please read my message in
Zillions of Games Discussion Forum:
New Games for Zillions:
MSO Zclient games into Zillions-of-Games. |
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